different tampura tunings on same raag

[barend]

I notice there is no consensus on the tampura tunings:

I have a few recordings of Ahir Bhairav...some tune the tampura to Sa
and Pa...and others to Sa and Ma.

The same goes for Durga....some tune Sa and Pa and some Sa and Ma...

But with a diffent tampura tuning I also get a diffent impression of
the raag.....for example Durga with the tampura tuned to Sa and Ma
gives me the impression of raag Bhupali....because you hear the Ma as
the root and not the Sa.

Why is there no standard for this?

[A***@gmail.com]

Let's get ANSI to form a standards committee for ICM!

Tanpura tuning is a matter of preference or even convenience. Many
times people don't even care about a varjya swara on the tanpura.

In fact the same musicians don't always use the same tanpura tuning to
perform a particular raga. I have an Amir Khan recording where he
initially sings Puriya and then suddenly switches to Abhogi. The
tanpura continues to be tuned to ni sa sa sa!

I have heard Bhimsen sing Abhogi as well as Durga with ni sa sa sa
tuning.

Some artists experiment - I have heard tanpura tuned to ma dha sa sa
for Bageshri!

Strangely when I am listening I don't find the inconsistency to be an
issue. I however find it extremely difficult to play when the tanpura
is not tuned to the swaras of my choice for the raga.

Regards,
Abhinav

Post by barend
I have a few recordings of Ahir Bhairav...some tune the tampura to Sa
and Pa...and others to Sa and Ma.
The same goes for Durga....some tune Sa and Pa and some Sa and Ma...
But with a diffent tampura tuning I also get a diffent impression of
the raag.....for example Durga with the tampura tuned to Sa and Ma
gives me the impression of raag Bhupali....because you hear the Ma as
the root and not the Sa.
Why is there no standard for this?

[a***@gmail.com]

I know several musicians who tune the Tanpura to the swar's of the
specific raags. This is especially relevant when a swar is varjit in a
Raag. For example, tune to Sa Ma Sa Sa for Marwa. I do find such tuning
very useful

[Chetan Vinchhi]

Post by a***@gmail.com
I know several musicians who tune the Tanpura to the swar's of the
specific raags. This is especially relevant when a swar is varjit in a
Raag. For example, tune to Sa Ma Sa Sa for Marwa. I do find such tuning
very useful

(shuddha) Ma is varjit in Marwa. So is Pa. I have come across
preferenes for Pa (this has its problems) as well as for Ni (this
has its own problems), but not Ma. I have even come across
one musician who used Dha and Ni tuning on two tanpuras.
Which musician(s) tune(s) the tanpura to Ma?

C

ps - Actually there was a similar discussion on RMIC a while back.

[a***@gmail.com]

I heard C R Vyas singing a Marwa with Tanpura a tuned to a Ma(Komal, to
be sure). This was several years back. I have some lesser known but
fairly accomplished friends who tune it to Ma.

[Chetan Vinchhi]

Post by a***@gmail.com
I heard C R Vyas singing a Marwa with Tanpura a tuned to a Ma(Komal, to
be sure). This was several years back. I have some lesser known but
fairly accomplished friends who tune it to Ma.

How is your statement about artists tuning to the swaras
of the raag relevant in the case of Ma tuning for Marwa?

Is the C R Vyas recording a commercially available one?
I think I have a Marwa by him somewhere. I will check
what tuning he has used.

C

[A***@gmail.com]

What do you consider to be the problems with Ni tuning for Marwa? I
prefer Ni Sa Sa Sa tuning for Marwa/Puriya. While I have not tried to
understand the technicalities of harmonics, I hear a very good komal
rishabha reference with this tuning.

Abhinav

[Chetan Vinchhi]

Post by A***@gmail.com
What do you consider to be the problems with Ni tuning for Marwa? I
prefer Ni Sa Sa Sa tuning for Marwa/Puriya. While I have not tried to
understand the technicalities of harmonics, I hear a very good komal
rishabha reference with this tuning.

Abhinav,

I am not a musician but...

N S' S' S is fine (in fact perfect) for Puriya. You say you hear a good
kR reference. If you hear the Puriya flavour of the kR, this will cause
a problem in Marwa. In any case, N appears sparingly in Marwa and
this too may cause a problem. Tuning to N might inadvertantly evoke
Puriya while singing Marwa. This may be manifested in subtle ways
such as a tendency to apply the wrong kR, deemphasize D etc.

A truly great musician may be able to extract a context for any raag
from any tanpura soundscape. But this is not for mere mortals. An
additional point of interest may be from the listener's perspective.
How liable are correct Marwa melodic gestures in a N S' S' S
tuning to suggesting Puriya?

As an aside, do you sing or play an instrument? The above points
are mainly from the p.o.v. of vocal music.

C

[Chetan Vinchhi]

Post by A***@gmail.com
Some artists experiment - I have heard tanpura tuned to ma dha sa sa
for Bageshri!

This is very strange. How can you break the joDii? A real
tanpura may be harder to tune and also drifts is tuning may
be harder to detect.

C

[A***@gmail.com]

I have heard the ma dha sa sa tuning for Bageshri only with a single
"small" tanpura for an instrumental performance.

Abhinav

[Chetan Vinchhi]

Post by A***@gmail.com
I have heard the ma dha sa sa tuning for Bageshri only with a single
"small" tanpura for an instrumental performance.

Thanks. I am not sure how many strings a small tanpura has and what
rules apply to its tuning. If it has 5 strings, m D S' S' S is okay.

C

[John Wright]

Post by Chetan Vinchhi

Post by A***@gmail.com
I have heard the ma dha sa sa tuning for Bageshri only with a single
"small" tanpura for an instrumental performance.

Thanks. I am not sure how many strings a small tanpura has and what
rules apply to its tuning. If it has 5 strings, m D S' S' S is okay.

Pt. Hari Prasad Chaurasia (in Audiorec CD ACCD 1008) has used a 5-string
tanpura tuned to <m D S' S' S> for Rag Marwa. (m = thivra ma).

Regards - JW

[Chetan Vinchhi]

Post by John Wright
Pt. Hari Prasad Chaurasia (in Audiorec CD ACCD 1008) has used a 5-string
tanpura tuned to <m D S' S' S> for Rag Marwa. (m = thivra ma).

Tanpura setting for Marwa is a hard problem and is a recurring theme
on RMIC. The above solution is unusual and also fraught with problems.
First, the use of m. Are you sure it is m? I thought you cannot tune a
tanpura string to an odd note (as Prasad put it). What kind of harmonics
are generated by this setting? What if you do this for a full-sized vocal
tanpura. Second, I have been told that D has a tendency to create strange
harmonics, especially if that or some other string deviates slightly from the
correct setting.

C

[SB]

Hi,
According to Pt. Omkarnath Thakur's research, one must see what notes
are output as swayambhu swaras Vs which are required in the raga.
In Marwa, shudh ni and ga are not the main swaras and could lead to a
purya effect if one strays.

Also, since komal re - dha are the main swara, things have to revolve
around it.

If shudh Ni s the 1st string, then it causes beats with the komal re -
main swara(The rule is that swaras placed at distance of 6, 7, 9, 13
shruthi distances are on 'talking terms' or 'Samvaad').

So Dha is chosen, but it interacts with an 'ati-komal' re!
That is why Marwa's komal re sounds different from Purya's komal re -
thus creating a different effect altogether.

Trying is believing!

PS: Sangeet Karyalaya Hathras has some interesting books on such works.
what's really good is that they send them on a phone order and pack
them really well - money's worth.

Cheers to delving deep,
Smita Bellur (Smt.)

[Chetan Vinchhi]

Post by SB
According to Pt. Omkarnath Thakur's research, one must see what notes
are output as swayambhu swaras Vs which are required in the raga.
In Marwa, shudh ni and ga are not the main swaras and could lead to a
purya effect if one strays.

Could you elaborate on the meaning of swayambhu swaras?
Are these swaras output by the tanpura? In that case the
set of sw. swaras will depend on the tuning.

What tanpura setting do you use for Marwa?

Post by SB
PS: Sangeet Karyalaya Hathras has some interesting books on such works.

Any pointers to a catalog (online?)?

C

[ChristianAMR]

Post by John Wright

Post by Chetan Vinchhi

Post by A***@gmail.com
I have heard the ma dha sa sa tuning for Bageshri only with a single
"small" tanpura for an instrumental performance.

Thanks. I am not sure how many strings a small tanpura has and what
rules apply to its tuning. If it has 5 strings, m D S' S' S is okay.

Pt. Hari Prasad Chaurasia (in Audiorec CD ACCD 1008) has used a 5-string
tanpura tuned to <m D S' S' S> for Rag Marwa. (m = thivra ma).
Regards - JW

Great info .
So this is an example of a diminished chord on a tanpura . ( F# dim / C , if C is the tonic )

[Praful Kelkar]

The psychoaccoustics of taanpura is a fascinating and yet poorly
studied subject.

What one hears in the taanpura has less to do with the primary note,
and more to harmonics, inverse harmonics (whereby one hears the missing
fundamental), interactions of the harmonics, etc. So the end result
is that you can mentally "tune into" any shruti that you wish to use in
the raag.

The eight harmonics from the Sa strings are (8 are easily heard)

S S P S G P kkN S (kkN is ati koman N)

Pa string will give you

P P R P N R kkm P

Now for the kG of malkauns for example, the mind seems to tune into the
P-kkN interval and one can clearly hear the kG in malkauns that comes
during S kG S. Or with M tuning of the first string it arrives in
another way. In any case, either by tuning to M or P, one can hear all
that one wants to. Then it is upto the taste of the particular
artist.

We haven't even talked about other complex interactions yet!!!

-PK

[Prasad Bhandarkar]

That is a wonderful explanation. However, if that is true, isn't tuning
tanpura to odd notes like komal dha a bad practice because it will prevent
this interaction of harmonics between pa/ma string and the sa triplet?

Also, is there a scientific (psychoaccoustic? - that's a good word, too)
explanation for someone like Bhimsen Joshi singing Darbari with ni-sa-sa-sa
tuning and yet there is no apparent "besur"?

Prasad


On 8/23/05 6:15 AM, in article

Post by Praful Kelkar
The psychoaccoustics of taanpura is a fascinating and yet poorly
studied subject.
What one hears in the taanpura has less to do with the primary note,
and more to harmonics, inverse harmonics (whereby one hears the missing
fundamental), interactions of the harmonics, etc. So the end result
is that you can mentally "tune into" any shruti that you wish to use in
the raag.
The eight harmonics from the Sa strings are (8 are easily heard)
S S P S G P kkN S (kkN is ati koman N)
Pa string will give you
P P R P N R kkm P
Now for the kG of malkauns for example, the mind seems to tune into the
P-kkN interval and one can clearly hear the kG in malkauns that comes
during S kG S. Or with M tuning of the first string it arrives in
another way. In any case, either by tuning to M or P, one can hear all
that one wants to. Then it is upto the taste of the particular
artist.
We haven't even talked about other complex interactions yet!!!
-PK

[Praful Kelkar]

I wouldn't say bad practice or not. it is a matter of tuning ones mind
to the particular intervals and using them to sing.
kD gives a nice ringing kG and its fifth is S. But it does create a
strange shruti of teevra Madhyam that is very low - am calling it ktM

If you start with d (kD) the harmonic series will be

d d g d S g ktM d - which is superimposed on
S S P S G P kkN S -- there is an interesting interactions in the
intervals.

Not finding N besura in Bhimsen's darabari brings up another intersting
question --- with the fine tuning of the jawari on the taanpura (with
a string generally 40# string works best I think). If you play with
that you will realize that you can bring out some harmonics more .. and
in fact make it so that the primary note is much softer than the 3rd or
the 5th harmonic.

using N (shuddha) as the first string is an intersting phenomenon.
The harmonic series is as follows-

N N tM N kG tM kkD which when superimposed on S
S S P S G P kkN S --- that creates all sorts of intersting intervals
and intersting shrutis.

Another curious observation - when you strum a string with good jawari
the various harmonics unfold slowly, almost as if they appear one after
another -- for example the kkN comes much later than P or G. Now,
the typical practice of playing taanpura is as follows - P -- SSS-,
P-SSS- ... the pause on the P is not accidental.

Someone really needs to dig into the psychoaccoustics of taanpura......


-PK