Discussion:
Parrikar is a Westerner!
(too old to reply)
Jeff
2005-05-01 06:44:54 UTC
Permalink
If you study his archive on SAWF, you will see that Parrikar is not
only a plagiarist, thief, liar, and guttermouth, he is also a
Westerner! His entire effort is based on the application of Western
methods to Indian Classical Music, with a complete disdain for the most
essential Indian elements of ICM, sadhana and riaz.
His archive is like a certain old joke - A guy loses his keys on a
dark street at night. He is looking under a street lamp for the keys
when his friend comes to help him look. His friend asks him, "Did you
lose your keys here?" The guy says, "No, I lost them over there." The
friend says, "Then why are you looking over here?" The guy says,
"There's more light over here." Similarly, his archive consists of
compositions and commentary which Parrikar has lifted from his various
sources, misprints and all, posted to the web. The special qualities
of ICM such as the tiny deliberate gamaks and the feeling inherent in
each note of the rag, cannot reduced to the page or the posting. That
is why every rag must be learned from those who know it, and cannot be
learned off a page. There are rags which have exactly the same scale,
such as Samanta Sarang and Sur Malhar, or Bhup Kalyan and Jait Kalyan,
which are distinguished precisely by the colors and feelings expressed
in each note. Ravi Shankar, for instance, believes that the system of
vadi-samvadi is wrong, because even a weak note in a rag expresses the
rasa of a rag, in its very weakness - therefore all the notes show the
rag equally. This cannot be learned from the page or posting.
Parrikar is basically doing to ICM what has been done to Western music,
reducing it to the page. Parrikar is trying to Westernize Indian
music, there is no other good term for it!
Parrikar, who lives in Mountain View, California. is typical of the
Westernized NRI's who owe everything they have to an English-medium
education and an American university degree (in Rajan's case, the U of
Colorado) and who achieve great success not in Indian society, but in
Western society. I do not begrudge Rajan's success in American society
as it is due to study and hard work - indeed, he's an example of The
American Dream. Guy immigrates to America, gets a PhD, works for Loral
Space Systems, which gives American missile secrets to the Red Chinese
and goes bankrupt. A real Silicon Valley success story, with the usual
ending. It always amuses me that the most Westernized Indians pretend
to be examples of Hindutva culture. They are the ones who immigrate to
my country, and then call me a foreigner. They are so out of touch with
reality that they do not appreciate the irony of that appellation.
While Parrikar is the proverbial "rocket-scientist", he couldn't
survive in India for a month on his knowledge of ICM. He is a bad
amateur harmonium player who doesn't know anything whatsoever about the
development of a rag. This I do know, as I've heard him play my
harmonium in my own living room in Palo Alto. He has no sadhana or
riaz whatsoever. You will notice that the development of a rag is
completely absent from his archive, precisely because he doesn't know
anything about it and has not done the kind of practice required to
achieve this knowledge. He is deficient in study and hard work in the
field of ICM - he should have spent the time he used collecting his
archive for practice instead. Then he might be able to play something.
He cannot develop even one piece correctly. In addition, he plays the
most Western of all instruments used in India, the harmonium. Maybe
this is why he is so ignorant of all the subtleties which cannot be
reduced to the page, and cannot be played on the harmonium. If he had
ever taken the time to learn a really Indian instrument like sitar,
sarod, or Krishna's own bansuri, he would have a very different idea of
what ICM consists of, because he would understand how difficult it is
to produce the subtle nuances which are absent from the harmonium. In
fact, he has an antipathy toward sadhana, the most Indian of virtues,
and replaces it with specious intellectualism, the most Western of
behaviors. He can only pretend to be a pandit because he lives in the
US, and because most of the people who inhabit his favorite ICM web
groups are similarly Westernized English-medium Western-educated NRI's
as well as Westerners who know even less than he does. People who
really know ICM have no use for him, which Rajan senses - thus he
engages in his attacks on those master musicians like Ali Akbar Khan.
Parrikar is a sample of the new reverse-colonialism. India's
greatest export to the West is now it's PhD con men, like Rajneesh,
Deepak Chopra, Paul Jain, Sanjay Kumar, and Rajan Parrikar. Like
Rajneesh, Parrikar got emboldened by a post-graduate degree, took up
residence in the West, found some suckers who knew less than himself,
and presto-chango, he's a pandit. Works every time. It all reminds me
of something that GS Sachdev said to me long ago, before the NRI
invasion of the 90's, which has now gone bust. After I complained to
him about some stupid thing an NRI had done, Sachdev said to me, "Don't
form your ideas of Indian culture based on the Indians who come to
America. They are the worst Indians, they come here for selfishness
and greed, they just come for money. The real Indians are still in
India, and they're uncomfortable in Western materialistic society."
Indeed, Parrikar is such a Westerner now that he even puts down his
own countrymen, like his rantings about Bengalis, who he likes to call
"bongs." For those who are not familiar with this term, it does not
refer to the thing which Hindu "holy men" use to smoke hashish and
opium called in India a "chillum" and by Cheech and Chong a "bong," but
instead it is a racial epithet hurled at Bengalis.
A certain friend of mine, a brahmin who grew up in Delhi, a very
thoughtful man who is a credit to his race, the human race, said an
interesting thing to me about Rajan. After reflecting on Parrikar's
hateful postings on Americans, Bengalis, women, and the rest, he said
to me, "Rajan can say this stuff only because he lives in America. In
India, they know how to deal with a guy like this. Some dark night,
someone would get him in an alley and beat him up good. Because he
lives in the US, people let him get away with it."
Rajan P. Parrikar
2005-05-01 16:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Gee, look what the poo' mleccha boy Jeff Whittier,
is reduced to in his senior years. He just can't get
over the tragedy that brownies came to America and
flushed him down the toilet. Brahmin kids who have
seen Jeff Whittier in dank and dingy restaurant corners,
blowing on his pipe, have been known to sigh,
"There but for the grace of God go I."

Warm regards,


r
Post by Jeff
If you study his archive on SAWF, you will see that Parrikar is not
only a plagiarist, thief, liar, and guttermouth, he is also a
Westerner! His entire effort is based on the application of Western
methods to Indian Classical Music, with a complete disdain for the most
essential Indian elements of ICM, sadhana and riaz.
His archive is like a certain old joke - A guy loses his keys on a
dark street at night. He is looking under a street lamp for the keys
when his friend comes to help him look. His friend asks him, "Did you
lose your keys here?" The guy says, "No, I lost them over there." The
friend says, "Then why are you looking over here?" The guy says,
"There's more light over here." Similarly, his archive consists of
compositions and commentary which Parrikar has lifted from his various
sources, misprints and all, posted to the web. The special qualities
of ICM such as the tiny deliberate gamaks and the feeling inherent in
each note of the rag, cannot reduced to the page or the posting. That
is why every rag must be learned from those who know it, and cannot be
learned off a page. There are rags which have exactly the same scale,
such as Samanta Sarang and Sur Malhar, or Bhup Kalyan and Jait Kalyan,
which are distinguished precisely by the colors and feelings expressed
in each note. Ravi Shankar, for instance, believes that the system of
vadi-samvadi is wrong, because even a weak note in a rag expresses the
rasa of a rag, in its very weakness - therefore all the notes show the
rag equally. This cannot be learned from the page or posting.
Parrikar is basically doing to ICM what has been done to Western music,
reducing it to the page. Parrikar is trying to Westernize Indian
music, there is no other good term for it!
Parrikar, who lives in Mountain View, California. is typical of the
Westernized NRI's who owe everything they have to an English-medium
education and an American university degree (in Rajan's case, the U of
Colorado) and who achieve great success not in Indian society, but in
Western society. I do not begrudge Rajan's success in American society
as it is due to study and hard work - indeed, he's an example of The
American Dream. Guy immigrates to America, gets a PhD, works for Loral
Space Systems, which gives American missile secrets to the Red Chinese
and goes bankrupt. A real Silicon Valley success story, with the usual
ending. It always amuses me that the most Westernized Indians pretend
to be examples of Hindutva culture. They are the ones who immigrate to
my country, and then call me a foreigner. They are so out of touch with
reality that they do not appreciate the irony of that appellation.
While Parrikar is the proverbial "rocket-scientist", he couldn't
survive in India for a month on his knowledge of ICM. He is a bad
amateur harmonium player who doesn't know anything whatsoever about the
development of a rag. This I do know, as I've heard him play my
harmonium in my own living room in Palo Alto. He has no sadhana or
riaz whatsoever. You will notice that the development of a rag is
completely absent from his archive, precisely because he doesn't know
anything about it and has not done the kind of practice required to
achieve this knowledge. He is deficient in study and hard work in the
field of ICM - he should have spent the time he used collecting his
archive for practice instead. Then he might be able to play something.
He cannot develop even one piece correctly. In addition, he plays the
most Western of all instruments used in India, the harmonium. Maybe
this is why he is so ignorant of all the subtleties which cannot be
reduced to the page, and cannot be played on the harmonium. If he had
ever taken the time to learn a really Indian instrument like sitar,
sarod, or Krishna's own bansuri, he would have a very different idea of
what ICM consists of, because he would understand how difficult it is
to produce the subtle nuances which are absent from the harmonium. In
fact, he has an antipathy toward sadhana, the most Indian of virtues,
and replaces it with specious intellectualism, the most Western of
behaviors. He can only pretend to be a pandit because he lives in the
US, and because most of the people who inhabit his favorite ICM web
groups are similarly Westernized English-medium Western-educated NRI's
as well as Westerners who know even less than he does. People who
really know ICM have no use for him, which Rajan senses - thus he
engages in his attacks on those master musicians like Ali Akbar Khan.
Parrikar is a sample of the new reverse-colonialism. India's
greatest export to the West is now it's PhD con men, like Rajneesh,
Deepak Chopra, Paul Jain, Sanjay Kumar, and Rajan Parrikar. Like
Rajneesh, Parrikar got emboldened by a post-graduate degree, took up
residence in the West, found some suckers who knew less than himself,
and presto-chango, he's a pandit. Works every time. It all reminds me
of something that GS Sachdev said to me long ago, before the NRI
invasion of the 90's, which has now gone bust. After I complained to
him about some stupid thing an NRI had done, Sachdev said to me, "Don't
form your ideas of Indian culture based on the Indians who come to
America. They are the worst Indians, they come here for selfishness
and greed, they just come for money. The real Indians are still in
India, and they're uncomfortable in Western materialistic society."
Indeed, Parrikar is such a Westerner now that he even puts down his
own countrymen, like his rantings about Bengalis, who he likes to call
"bongs." For those who are not familiar with this term, it does not
refer to the thing which Hindu "holy men" use to smoke hashish and
opium called in India a "chillum" and by Cheech and Chong a "bong," but
instead it is a racial epithet hurled at Bengalis.
A certain friend of mine, a brahmin who grew up in Delhi, a very
thoughtful man who is a credit to his race, the human race, said an
interesting thing to me about Rajan. After reflecting on Parrikar's
hateful postings on Americans, Bengalis, women, and the rest, he said
to me, "Rajan can say this stuff only because he lives in America. In
India, they know how to deal with a guy like this. Some dark night,
someone would get him in an alley and beat him up good. Because he
lives in the US, people let him get away with it."
m***@gmail.com
2005-05-01 18:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Jeff:
You have done enough mud slinging so far but not given any specifics.
Looks like you have this problem last 6 to 7 years.

Now it is your turn to produce the proof about what you say. Where
exactly the stuff was lifted from. Do you have any idea. Your posts
reminds me of some thing Mr.Parkinson used to say:

"It is like going to the toilet, First there is a big report and then
the matter is dropped."

We are not interested in your or Rajan's lifestyles, History or
Geography

We are waiting.

MB
Post by Jeff
If you study his archive on SAWF, you will see that Parrikar is not
only a plagiarist, thief, liar, and guttermouth, he is also a
Westerner! His entire effort is based on the application of Western
methods to Indian Classical Music, with a complete disdain for the most
essential Indian elements of ICM, sadhana and riaz.
His archive is like a certain old joke - A guy loses his keys on a
dark street at night. He is looking under a street lamp for the keys
when his friend comes to help him look. His friend asks him, "Did you
lose your keys here?" The guy says, "No, I lost them over there."
The
Post by Jeff
friend says, "Then why are you looking over here?" The guy says,
"There's more light over here." Similarly, his archive consists of
compositions and commentary which Parrikar has lifted from his
various
Post by Jeff
sources, misprints and all, posted to the web. The special qualities
of ICM such as the tiny deliberate gamaks and the feeling inherent in
each note of the rag, cannot reduced to the page or the posting.
That
Post by Jeff
is why every rag must be learned from those who know it, and cannot be
learned off a page. There are rags which have exactly the same scale,
such as Samanta Sarang and Sur Malhar, or Bhup Kalyan and Jait
Kalyan,
Post by Jeff
which are distinguished precisely by the colors and feelings
expressed
Post by Jeff
in each note. Ravi Shankar, for instance, believes that the system of
vadi-samvadi is wrong, because even a weak note in a rag expresses the
rasa of a rag, in its very weakness - therefore all the notes show the
rag equally. This cannot be learned from the page or posting.
Parrikar is basically doing to ICM what has been done to Western music,
reducing it to the page. Parrikar is trying to Westernize Indian
music, there is no other good term for it!
Parrikar, who lives in Mountain View, California. is typical of the
Westernized NRI's who owe everything they have to an English-medium
education and an American university degree (in Rajan's case, the U of
Colorado) and who achieve great success not in Indian society, but in
Western society. I do not begrudge Rajan's success in American society
as it is due to study and hard work - indeed, he's an example of The
American Dream. Guy immigrates to America, gets a PhD, works for Loral
Space Systems, which gives American missile secrets to the Red
Chinese
Post by Jeff
and goes bankrupt. A real Silicon Valley success story, with the usual
ending. It always amuses me that the most Westernized Indians
pretend
Post by Jeff
to be examples of Hindutva culture. They are the ones who immigrate to
my country, and then call me a foreigner. They are so out of touch with
reality that they do not appreciate the irony of that appellation.
While Parrikar is the proverbial "rocket-scientist", he couldn't
survive in India for a month on his knowledge of ICM. He is a bad
amateur harmonium player who doesn't know anything whatsoever about the
development of a rag. This I do know, as I've heard him play my
harmonium in my own living room in Palo Alto. He has no sadhana or
riaz whatsoever. You will notice that the development of a rag is
completely absent from his archive, precisely because he doesn't know
anything about it and has not done the kind of practice required to
achieve this knowledge. He is deficient in study and hard work in the
field of ICM - he should have spent the time he used collecting his
archive for practice instead. Then he might be able to play
something.
Post by Jeff
He cannot develop even one piece correctly. In addition, he plays the
most Western of all instruments used in India, the harmonium. Maybe
this is why he is so ignorant of all the subtleties which cannot be
reduced to the page, and cannot be played on the harmonium. If he had
ever taken the time to learn a really Indian instrument like sitar,
sarod, or Krishna's own bansuri, he would have a very different idea of
what ICM consists of, because he would understand how difficult it is
to produce the subtle nuances which are absent from the harmonium. In
fact, he has an antipathy toward sadhana, the most Indian of virtues,
and replaces it with specious intellectualism, the most Western of
behaviors. He can only pretend to be a pandit because he lives in the
US, and because most of the people who inhabit his favorite ICM web
groups are similarly Westernized English-medium Western-educated NRI's
as well as Westerners who know even less than he does. People who
really know ICM have no use for him, which Rajan senses - thus he
engages in his attacks on those master musicians like Ali Akbar Khan.
Parrikar is a sample of the new reverse-colonialism. India's
greatest export to the West is now it's PhD con men, like Rajneesh,
Deepak Chopra, Paul Jain, Sanjay Kumar, and Rajan Parrikar. Like
Rajneesh, Parrikar got emboldened by a post-graduate degree, took up
residence in the West, found some suckers who knew less than himself,
and presto-chango, he's a pandit. Works every time. It all reminds me
of something that GS Sachdev said to me long ago, before the NRI
invasion of the 90's, which has now gone bust. After I complained to
him about some stupid thing an NRI had done, Sachdev said to me, "Don't
form your ideas of Indian culture based on the Indians who come to
America. They are the worst Indians, they come here for selfishness
and greed, they just come for money. The real Indians are still in
India, and they're uncomfortable in Western materialistic society."
Indeed, Parrikar is such a Westerner now that he even puts down his
own countrymen, like his rantings about Bengalis, who he likes to call
"bongs." For those who are not familiar with this term, it does not
refer to the thing which Hindu "holy men" use to smoke hashish and
opium called in India a "chillum" and by Cheech and Chong a "bong," but
instead it is a racial epithet hurled at Bengalis.
A certain friend of mine, a brahmin who grew up in Delhi, a very
thoughtful man who is a credit to his race, the human race, said an
interesting thing to me about Rajan. After reflecting on Parrikar's
hateful postings on Americans, Bengalis, women, and the rest, he said
to me, "Rajan can say this stuff only because he lives in America.
In
Post by Jeff
India, they know how to deal with a guy like this. Some dark night,
someone would get him in an alley and beat him up good. Because he
lives in the US, people let him get away with it."
Johan Vikberg
2005-05-01 22:37:15 UTC
Permalink
The special qualities of ICM such as the tiny deliberate
gamaks and the feeling inherent in each note of the rag,
cannot be reduced to the page or the posting. That is
why every rag must be learned from those who know it,
and cannot be learned off a page.
To be fair, you must admit the pages are full of sound clips where
the music can be heard.
Adi Nemlekar
2005-05-02 14:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff
"Don't
form your ideas of Indian culture based on the Indians who come to
America. They are the worst Indians, they come here for selfishness
and greed, they just come for money. The real Indians are still in
India, and they're uncomfortable in Western materialistic society." <<

Hmm...that would put people like Ali Akbar Khan and Ravi
Shankar[although he has since moved back to India] in the same group as
the rest of us NRI scum I reckon? AND they play your "Indian"
instruments too...the shame! Kinda kicked yourself in the nuts there
didn't ya?

Your "real Indians" are xenophobic, sexist, ethnocentric fudgepackers
who are scared shitless of growing outside the confines of their
pathetic existence...and their pseudo-aestheticism comes from nothing
outside of a burning envy they don't quite know how to handle. Looks
like Mr. Sachdev (whoever he may be) has been tapping the "bong" a tad
himself.

You're one of those people aren't ya...oh-so-bitter about Indians
coming and taking your American jobs? And...you play bansuri...and then
call Parrikar a hypocrite? I don't care what your musical credentials
are...you could be Lord (Hare Rama Hare) Krishna incarnate
himself...your affinity for logic is that of a wet dishrag, which is
why America needs NRIs like us...we may play YOUR harmonium, but at
least we can fathom logical propositions. Gamakas don't put rockets in
space, ya dumb cock-jockie.

Your posts had NO facts...no substantiation...just ad hominums. And
instead of contributing intellectually to the ongoing musical debate,
you chose to take pot-shots at immigration?! Why don't you go
"develop" some raag. It is painfully obvious logical dialogue isn't
your strong suit.
m***@gmail.com
2005-05-02 14:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Yes I asked him for the specifics or the facts. It seems the Flute is
flat now.

Silence is Golden may be.

Jeff you still have time but let us know how long you need to post your
response.


MB
news net
2005-05-02 16:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Guys,

Be civilized! In the name of music, you can't be doing mud slinging. I don't
care about rajan's archive or where he lifted them from. First of all,
should I read, ICM as Indian Classical Music or Indian Carnatic Music?
Bharatiya Sangeetham has two distinctly different styles and like most
westerners have known for a long time, it is not simply Hindustani Music
alone. I don't know about either Jeff's or Rajan's credentials or
pandithvaa..! (sounds like Hindutva?). I don't care about them either. To
me, anyone who has taken pains to put together a site to get some good
musical clippings has done some service to the classical music world. Jeff
is right. Music is not in talking. It is in sadhana or riaz... It applies to
A, B, and C. So does to Rajan as well as Jeff or anyone of you who is
standing on either side and cheering..

Music is all about developing a good taste, discerning listening and be able
to identify good from bad and go for better if you want to pusue music as
either a passion or vocation. Yes, Harmonium is not for gamakams etc. is
true.
As an avid listener of both systems of music (which is a unique trend I see
in south indian music enthusiasts), I have listened to music form either
traditions of all gharanas and 'paaNi's for the last 40 years at least. My
dear friend and one time guru Shri T.N. Seshagopalan is a noted vocalist,
vanika and an excellent harmonium player. He has defied gravity man. I have
listened to his full length harmonium concert and CD. Unbelievable playing
full of vocal style of playing with Gamakams.A gifted, deft hand can do
magic on any instrument. If a flute with holes not offering natural
continuity, any amount of fretted stringed instruments like, sitar, veena,
mandolin, guitar, mohan veena, sarod can produce continuous fine gamakas and
brikas, so can a harmonium.. It is all in the hands and the evolved,
realized music of the player.

Quit behaving like children. Pandit status is not self-accorded or given by
half-baked rasikas.. A true pandit knows to cross and see the other sides
only to realize that he has to travel a long distance and hope to see the
end of his journey only when his/her soul reaches the paramatman, when he
becomes a sampurna soul merging with eternal primordial sound Ohm and
becomes music itself. (Strange.. but true.. He/She becomes 'IT') - i.e to
say.. 'Thou art that'..

Let's use this forum to discuss and learn more music and not bring politics
and parties to this forum. Use your intellect and experience for learning
further not to destruct.

Sincerely
Ashok Subra
Post by Jeff
If you study his archive on SAWF, you will see that Parrikar is not
only a plagiarist, thief, liar, and guttermouth, he is also a
Westerner! His entire effort is based on the application of Western
methods to Indian Classical Music, with a complete disdain for the most
essential Indian elements of ICM, sadhana and riaz.
His archive is like a certain old joke - A guy loses his keys on a
dark street at night. He is looking under a street lamp for the keys
when his friend comes to help him look. His friend asks him, "Did you
lose your keys here?" The guy says, "No, I lost them over there." The
friend says, "Then why are you looking over here?" The guy says,
"There's more light over here." Similarly, his archive consists of
compositions and commentary which Parrikar has lifted from his various
sources, misprints and all, posted to the web. The special qualities
of ICM such as the tiny deliberate gamaks and the feeling inherent in
each note of the rag, cannot reduced to the page or the posting. That
is why every rag must be learned from those who know it, and cannot be
learned off a page. There are rags which have exactly the same scale,
such as Samanta Sarang and Sur Malhar, or Bhup Kalyan and Jait Kalyan,
which are distinguished precisely by the colors and feelings expressed
in each note. Ravi Shankar, for instance, believes that the system of
vadi-samvadi is wrong, because even a weak note in a rag expresses the
rasa of a rag, in its very weakness - therefore all the notes show the
rag equally. This cannot be learned from the page or posting.
Parrikar is basically doing to ICM what has been done to Western music,
reducing it to the page. Parrikar is trying to Westernize Indian
music, there is no other good term for it!
Parrikar, who lives in Mountain View, California. is typical of the
Westernized NRI's who owe everything they have to an English-medium
education and an American university degree (in Rajan's case, the U of
Colorado) and who achieve great success not in Indian society, but in
Western society. I do not begrudge Rajan's success in American society
as it is due to study and hard work - indeed, he's an example of The
American Dream. Guy immigrates to America, gets a PhD, works for Loral
Space Systems, which gives American missile secrets to the Red Chinese
and goes bankrupt. A real Silicon Valley success story, with the usual
ending. It always amuses me that the most Westernized Indians pretend
to be examples of Hindutva culture. They are the ones who immigrate to
my country, and then call me a foreigner. They are so out of touch with
reality that they do not appreciate the irony of that appellation.
While Parrikar is the proverbial "rocket-scientist", he couldn't
survive in India for a month on his knowledge of ICM. He is a bad
amateur harmonium player who doesn't know anything whatsoever about the
development of a rag. This I do know, as I've heard him play my
harmonium in my own living room in Palo Alto. He has no sadhana or
riaz whatsoever. You will notice that the development of a rag is
completely absent from his archive, precisely because he doesn't know
anything about it and has not done the kind of practice required to
achieve this knowledge. He is deficient in study and hard work in the
field of ICM - he should have spent the time he used collecting his
archive for practice instead. Then he might be able to play something.
He cannot develop even one piece correctly. In addition, he plays the
most Western of all instruments used in India, the harmonium. Maybe
this is why he is so ignorant of all the subtleties which cannot be
reduced to the page, and cannot be played on the harmonium. If he had
ever taken the time to learn a really Indian instrument like sitar,
sarod, or Krishna's own bansuri, he would have a very different idea of
what ICM consists of, because he would understand how difficult it is
to produce the subtle nuances which are absent from the harmonium. In
fact, he has an antipathy toward sadhana, the most Indian of virtues,
and replaces it with specious intellectualism, the most Western of
behaviors. He can only pretend to be a pandit because he lives in the
US, and because most of the people who inhabit his favorite ICM web
groups are similarly Westernized English-medium Western-educated NRI's
as well as Westerners who know even less than he does. People who
really know ICM have no use for him, which Rajan senses - thus he
engages in his attacks on those master musicians like Ali Akbar Khan.
Parrikar is a sample of the new reverse-colonialism. India's
greatest export to the West is now it's PhD con men, like Rajneesh,
Deepak Chopra, Paul Jain, Sanjay Kumar, and Rajan Parrikar. Like
Rajneesh, Parrikar got emboldened by a post-graduate degree, took up
residence in the West, found some suckers who knew less than himself,
and presto-chango, he's a pandit. Works every time. It all reminds me
of something that GS Sachdev said to me long ago, before the NRI
invasion of the 90's, which has now gone bust. After I complained to
him about some stupid thing an NRI had done, Sachdev said to me, "Don't
form your ideas of Indian culture based on the Indians who come to
America. They are the worst Indians, they come here for selfishness
and greed, they just come for money. The real Indians are still in
India, and they're uncomfortable in Western materialistic society."
Indeed, Parrikar is such a Westerner now that he even puts down his
own countrymen, like his rantings about Bengalis, who he likes to call
"bongs." For those who are not familiar with this term, it does not
refer to the thing which Hindu "holy men" use to smoke hashish and
opium called in India a "chillum" and by Cheech and Chong a "bong," but
instead it is a racial epithet hurled at Bengalis.
A certain friend of mine, a brahmin who grew up in Delhi, a very
thoughtful man who is a credit to his race, the human race, said an
interesting thing to me about Rajan. After reflecting on Parrikar's
hateful postings on Americans, Bengalis, women, and the rest, he said
to me, "Rajan can say this stuff only because he lives in America. In
India, they know how to deal with a guy like this. Some dark night,
someone would get him in an alley and beat him up good. Because he
lives in the US, people let him get away with it."
irfan
2005-05-02 22:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by news net
Guys,
Be civilized! In the name of music, you can't be doing mud slinging. I don't
care about rajan's archive or where he lifted them from. First of all,
should I read, ICM as Indian Classical Music or Indian Carnatic Music?
Bharatiya Sangeetham has two distinctly different styles and like most
westerners have known for a long time, it is not simply Hindustani Music
alone. I don't know about either Jeff's or Rajan's credentials or
pandithvaa..! (sounds like Hindutva?). I don't care about them
either. To
Post by news net
me, anyone who has taken pains to put together a site to get some good
musical clippings has done some service to the classical music world. Jeff
is right. Music is not in talking. It is in sadhana or riaz... It applies to
A, B, and C. So does to Rajan as well as Jeff or anyone of you who is
standing on either side and cheering..
Music is all about developing a good taste, discerning listening and be able
to identify good from bad and go for better if you want to pusue music as
either a passion or vocation. Yes, Harmonium is not for gamakams etc. is
true.
As an avid listener of both systems of music (which is a unique trend I see
in south indian music enthusiasts), I have listened to music form either
traditions of all gharanas and 'paaNi's for the last 40 years at least. My
dear friend and one time guru Shri T.N. Seshagopalan is a noted vocalist,
vanika and an excellent harmonium player. He has defied gravity man. I have
listened to his full length harmonium concert and CD. Unbelievable playing
full of vocal style of playing with Gamakams.A gifted, deft hand can do
magic on any instrument. If a flute with holes not offering natural
continuity, any amount of fretted stringed instruments like, sitar, veena,
mandolin, guitar, mohan veena, sarod can produce continuous fine gamakas and
brikas, so can a harmonium.. It is all in the hands and the evolved,
realized music of the player.
Quit behaving like children. Pandit status is not self-accorded or given by
half-baked rasikas.. A true pandit knows to cross and see the other sides
only to realize that he has to travel a long distance and hope to see the
end of his journey only when his/her soul reaches the paramatman, when he
becomes a sampurna soul merging with eternal primordial sound Ohm and
becomes music itself. (Strange.. but true.. He/She becomes 'IT') - i.e to
say.. 'Thou art that'..
Let's use this forum to discuss and learn more music and not bring politics
and parties to this forum. Use your intellect and experience for learning
further not to destruct.
Sincerely
Ashok Subra
Post by Jeff
If you study his archive on SAWF, you will see that Parrikar is not
only a plagiarist, thief, liar, and guttermouth, he is also a
Westerner! His entire effort is based on the application of
Western
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
methods to Indian Classical Music, with a complete disdain for the most
essential Indian elements of ICM, sadhana and riaz.
His archive is like a certain old joke - A guy loses his keys on a
dark street at night. He is looking under a street lamp for the keys
when his friend comes to help him look. His friend asks him, "Did you
lose your keys here?" The guy says, "No, I lost them over there."
The
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
friend says, "Then why are you looking over here?" The guy says,
"There's more light over here." Similarly, his archive consists of
compositions and commentary which Parrikar has lifted from his various
sources, misprints and all, posted to the web. The special
qualities
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
of ICM such as the tiny deliberate gamaks and the feeling inherent in
each note of the rag, cannot reduced to the page or the posting.
That
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
is why every rag must be learned from those who know it, and cannot be
learned off a page. There are rags which have exactly the same scale,
such as Samanta Sarang and Sur Malhar, or Bhup Kalyan and Jait Kalyan,
which are distinguished precisely by the colors and feelings
expressed
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
in each note. Ravi Shankar, for instance, believes that the system of
vadi-samvadi is wrong, because even a weak note in a rag expresses the
rasa of a rag, in its very weakness - therefore all the notes show the
rag equally. This cannot be learned from the page or posting.
Parrikar is basically doing to ICM what has been done to Western music,
reducing it to the page. Parrikar is trying to Westernize Indian
music, there is no other good term for it!
Parrikar, who lives in Mountain View, California. is typical of the
Westernized NRI's who owe everything they have to an English-medium
education and an American university degree (in Rajan's case, the U of
Colorado) and who achieve great success not in Indian society, but in
Western society. I do not begrudge Rajan's success in American society
as it is due to study and hard work - indeed, he's an example of The
American Dream. Guy immigrates to America, gets a PhD, works for Loral
Space Systems, which gives American missile secrets to the Red Chinese
and goes bankrupt. A real Silicon Valley success story, with the usual
ending. It always amuses me that the most Westernized Indians pretend
to be examples of Hindutva culture. They are the ones who
immigrate to
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
my country, and then call me a foreigner. They are so out of touch with
reality that they do not appreciate the irony of that appellation.
While Parrikar is the proverbial "rocket-scientist", he couldn't
survive in India for a month on his knowledge of ICM. He is a bad
amateur harmonium player who doesn't know anything whatsoever about the
development of a rag. This I do know, as I've heard him play my
harmonium in my own living room in Palo Alto. He has no sadhana or
riaz whatsoever. You will notice that the development of a rag is
completely absent from his archive, precisely because he doesn't know
anything about it and has not done the kind of practice required to
achieve this knowledge. He is deficient in study and hard work in the
field of ICM - he should have spent the time he used collecting his
archive for practice instead. Then he might be able to play
something.
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
He cannot develop even one piece correctly. In addition, he plays the
most Western of all instruments used in India, the harmonium.
Maybe
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
this is why he is so ignorant of all the subtleties which cannot be
reduced to the page, and cannot be played on the harmonium. If he had
ever taken the time to learn a really Indian instrument like sitar,
sarod, or Krishna's own bansuri, he would have a very different idea of
what ICM consists of, because he would understand how difficult it is
to produce the subtle nuances which are absent from the harmonium. In
fact, he has an antipathy toward sadhana, the most Indian of
virtues,
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
and replaces it with specious intellectualism, the most Western of
behaviors. He can only pretend to be a pandit because he lives in the
US, and because most of the people who inhabit his favorite ICM web
groups are similarly Westernized English-medium Western-educated NRI's
as well as Westerners who know even less than he does. People who
really know ICM have no use for him, which Rajan senses - thus he
engages in his attacks on those master musicians like Ali Akbar Khan.
Parrikar is a sample of the new reverse-colonialism. India's
greatest export to the West is now it's PhD con men, like Rajneesh,
Deepak Chopra, Paul Jain, Sanjay Kumar, and Rajan Parrikar. Like
Rajneesh, Parrikar got emboldened by a post-graduate degree, took up
residence in the West, found some suckers who knew less than
himself,
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
and presto-chango, he's a pandit. Works every time. It all
reminds me
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
of something that GS Sachdev said to me long ago, before the NRI
invasion of the 90's, which has now gone bust. After I complained to
him about some stupid thing an NRI had done, Sachdev said to me, "Don't
form your ideas of Indian culture based on the Indians who come to
America. They are the worst Indians, they come here for
selfishness
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
and greed, they just come for money. The real Indians are still in
India, and they're uncomfortable in Western materialistic society."
Indeed, Parrikar is such a Westerner now that he even puts down his
own countrymen, like his rantings about Bengalis, who he likes to call
"bongs." For those who are not familiar with this term, it does not
refer to the thing which Hindu "holy men" use to smoke hashish and
opium called in India a "chillum" and by Cheech and Chong a "bong," but
instead it is a racial epithet hurled at Bengalis.
A certain friend of mine, a brahmin who grew up in Delhi, a very
thoughtful man who is a credit to his race, the human race, said an
interesting thing to me about Rajan. After reflecting on
Parrikar's
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
hateful postings on Americans, Bengalis, women, and the rest, he said
to me, "Rajan can say this stuff only because he lives in America.
In
Post by news net
Post by Jeff
India, they know how to deal with a guy like this. Some dark night,
someone would get him in an alley and beat him up good. Because he
lives in the US, people let him get away with it."
Ashok ji, you are absolutely right.
In ICM you are either a singer/player or a listner.
Once, Ustad Fayyaz Khansaheb was singing in a Mehfil when a Pundit
interrupted him and said," Khansaheb you are not singing
correctly.
This Raag is described differently in the Shastras." Khansaheb
asked the
Pundit to show him the Shastra. When the Pundit gave the Shastra
to
Khansaheb he put that to his ear and said I can hear nothing,it is
silent.
The Pundit asked Khansaheb to read it. Khansaheb's reply was
hisorical,he
said, " I don't care what is written in the Shastras, whatever you
are
saying just sing it." ICM cannot be explained by just writing, it
has to
be sung, and the listner has to discern the swars.

Warm regards,

Irfan
John Wright
2005-05-03 04:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Yes, Harmonium is not for gamakams etc. is true.
If a flute with holes not offering natural continuity,
I agree with the substance of your post, but I have to object here.
Comparing harmonium with these other instruments is not proper.

Flute, despite having discrete holes, does provide continuity of change of
pitch. The fingers can be lifted smoothly, opening or closing a hole in a
gradual manner, producing good gamakam.
...any amount of fretted stringed instruments like, sitar, veena, mandolin,
guitar,
Again, all these instruments allow the strings to be pulled sideways,
smoothly - allowing smooth gamakam.
mohan veena, sarod can produce continuous fine gamakas and brikas,
In these instruments one can slide along the string in a smooth manner,
allowing smooth gamakams.
so can a harmonium.. It is all in the hands and the evolved, realized
music of the player.
Not so. It does not logically follow that the above instruments can produce
gamakams and therefore the harmonium can too. Smooth movement from one note
to another in harmonium is simply impossible, it has no ability whatsoever
of producing frequencies in between the notes of its reeds. No matter what
the player's skill is.

But no harmonium player needs apologise for this. The ability for smooth
gamakam, jaaru, meend etc is important in producing good music, but I can
also find the highest form of musical expression and enjoyment in an
instrument like santoor - one that is totally incapable of gamakams. To me,
the ability of producing smooth gamakam is just one - of many - desirable
features of a musical instrument. All that matters is how much aesthetic
enjoyment a performer is able to extract out of the instrument. Every
instrument has its limitations, and strengths. Truly gifted performers will
produce highest quality musical enjoyment even from a small subset of the
feature set. Harmonium can indeed produce the highest form of musical
enjoyment. But it will need a certain open mindset from the listener.

Regards - JW
news net
2005-05-03 05:16:14 UTC
Permalink
I was just comparing the instruments that have discrete note positions. In
fact, I have said it very clearly that it is true that Harmonium is not for
gamakams. The degree of continuity varies depending on how well the player
is able to play the instrument.

Who would have believed that from such a small fretted instrument, a high
quality music could be produced through the magical fingers and the genius
of Mandolin Shrinivas? Also, looking at the construction of Saxaphone (which
is more like pressing harmonium keys) listening to Kadhari Gopalnath
playing, if somebody had told me 15 years back that Saxaphone could be used
in Indian Music, I would have laughed. Now, coming back to flue, the notes
are discrete in a flue and by combination of holes in full and partially
closed position with quick finger movements, an accomplished musicians is
able to produce a gamaka ridden music effortlessly. What is the continuity
providing factor there, except the continuous blowing of the flautist? Same
way, I have heard, very talented harmonium artists in south of India, in
sampradhaya bajana settings, playing with utmost skill, simulating many
different types of gamaka patterns.

Having said that, I am really thankful that people like you and irfan see
the point of my posting.. My intent is not to sermonize, but to really bring
people to discuss meanifully, instead of hurling abusive words and phrases..

I appreciate your comments..

Best,

Ashok Subramaniam
Post by John Wright
Yes, Harmonium is not for gamakams etc. is true.
If a flute with holes not offering natural continuity,
I agree with the substance of your post, but I have to object here.
Comparing harmonium with these other instruments is not proper.
Flute, despite having discrete holes, does provide continuity of change of
pitch. The fingers can be lifted smoothly, opening or closing a hole in a
gradual manner, producing good gamakam.
...any amount of fretted stringed instruments like, sitar, veena,
mandolin, guitar,
Again, all these instruments allow the strings to be pulled sideways,
smoothly - allowing smooth gamakam.
mohan veena, sarod can produce continuous fine gamakas and brikas,
In these instruments one can slide along the string in a smooth manner,
allowing smooth gamakams.
so can a harmonium.. It is all in the hands and the evolved, realized
music of the player.
Not so. It does not logically follow that the above instruments can
produce gamakams and therefore the harmonium can too. Smooth movement from
one note to another in harmonium is simply impossible, it has no ability
whatsoever of producing frequencies in between the notes of its reeds. No
matter what the player's skill is.
But no harmonium player needs apologise for this. The ability for smooth
gamakam, jaaru, meend etc is important in producing good music, but I can
also find the highest form of musical expression and enjoyment in an
instrument like santoor - one that is totally incapable of gamakams. To
me, the ability of producing smooth gamakam is just one - of many -
desirable features of a musical instrument. All that matters is how much
aesthetic enjoyment a performer is able to extract out of the instrument.
Every instrument has its limitations, and strengths. Truly gifted
performers will produce highest quality musical enjoyment even from a
small subset of the feature set. Harmonium can indeed produce the highest
form of musical enjoyment. But it will need a certain open mindset from
the listener.
Regards - JW
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